Saying that what he defeated was less than a Balrog is speculation. I mean, Tolkien obviously devoted eons of thought into the attempted unification of all of his texts, and it's perfectly logical to assume he would continue if he were alive today. But 'demon', especially in the later writings like those we are dealing with, has another broader meaning. By this time, Gandalf has become the White and been given greater ability to intervene in events, so I feel it is more likely that Gandalf doesn't have the ability, as opposed to not being asked by Aragorn. It wasn't until after Gandalf's departure that the Elves realised that the the Istari were sent by the Valar for their aid, so it would make sense that they do not shine out like a beacon in the Unseen world. Apart from being far more killable in the early writings, they were also larger (the passage where Glorfindel fights his mentions it being twice his height, whereas the first draft of the encounter between Gandalf and the Balrog has Durin's Bane being 'no more than man-high') and had gained the clouding shadow that became a feature defining them as much as their fire. Later in the chapter, he is joined in healing others of the Black Breath by the Sons of Elrond, but again Gandalf doesn't seem to be involved. Second, the situation that arose would need to be altered. Balrog vs Glorfindel- even match. -- "Of Beren and Lúthien" (The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion). He was, however, still less mighty than Gandalf. You're one of the 3 or so contributors that I trust on matters Tolkien, and it's so nice for a change to see you contributing something clearly thought out and insightful, instead of (helpfully) correcting people. Glorfindel lebte im Ersten Zeitalter in Gondolin und war Herr des Hauses der Goldenen Blume, einem der zwölf Häuser von Gondolin. Share your thoughts, experiences and the tales behind the art. She was able to enter peoples minds to read and communicate with them. Of changing and of shifting shape, Well you have to consider the fact that both Balrogs and elves were stronger and more wonderful (awesome? Besides this Gandalf makes a point to the Fellowship later on how dangerous it is to attempt to enter and leave Sauron's domains. But I would propose that the great feat of Glorfindel would not, had Tolkien been able to continue his works, have been the slaying of a Balrog, but something else, a Demon of not-quite Might. Glorfindel war ein Elb aus Turgons Volk. The fact that Morgoth would never waste his one of seven/three captains in anything else but the attack on the city of Goldolin is indicative of disharmony with the usual logical pattern of Tolkien's reasons. This is a concept for the origin of Orcs I have not come in contact with before, will you go into further detail? And I might, if I can maintain the effort. the gates of Barad-dur do not return. Durin's Bane, like Gandalf, was a Maia, and these Balrogs were a race of creatures created, one and all, by Morgoth. end J. R. R. Tolkienh 9780547928197q,4a00c5e6-9ab0-41eb-b2e8-6b5058aaf29ap4calibre:4a00c5e6-9ab0-41eb-b2e8-6b5058aaf29a ・ EBOKj!2012-09-18T05:00:00+00:00フ ノヘ ホ マ ・ノ ヒ ハ ・ kindle:embed:0001t 2・・ The Return of the King: Being the Third Part of the Lord of the Rings My local book stores and thrift shops have only yielded volume 5 thus far . Galadriel was 'one of the most powerful' elves, her magic enhanced with her ring enabled her to be the magical equal of Sauron for a short time. This is all contained in 'Myths Transformed', a section of Morgoth's Ring, the tenth volume of The History of Middle-earth. He played a prominent behind-the-scenes role in the war in Eriador and the other struggles of the Second Age and Third Age. It seems to me that the easiest answer would be to attribute the contradictory characteristics to the waning of strength of Middle Earth creatures - i.e., first age elves and men were just more bad ass than their third age counterparts on average. Glorfindel has a power against the Shadow of Sauron, far greater than any ordinary Elf, let alone the mightiest Dunedain warrior of the Third Age. Etc. At least for Irmo. It also stands as a contrast to his use of 'angelic' when talking about Maiar (and Valar) who have not fallen to evil. Latest Blog Post: Favorite Questions and Answers from Fourth Quarter 2020. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed. Saved by Darth Jose, Dark Lord of the Sith. How can a technologically advanced species be conquered by a less advanced one? The duel of Glorfindel and the Demon may need revision. This weakening can be seen in other ways. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. The heroism of Glorfindel in him sacrificing himself is intersective to all versions. I doubt I'm alone in this feeling, which is possibly why the opinion you express is a relatively unpopular one. But it is said he was given power comparable to a Maïa upon his return, so that says he didn't have that power before his death. In Tolkien's 'final' form we at least have Balrogs, these 'Boldogs', Sauron, and whatever else there may be. February 2021 Topic Challenge: Hal Clement, Opt-in alpha test for a new Stacks editor, Visual design changes to the review queues. In Tolkien’s history it’s rare anyone survives killing a being of Sauron power. The fight between Glorfindel and the Balrog, and the fact that the Glorfindel of The Silmarillion and the Glorfindel of The Lord of the Rings are one and the same, has often been used to demonstrate the great might of Glorfindel. Quite a clique, and one not even the late-coming but considerably more powerful Sauron could breach. These are where Tolkien affirms that Glorfindel of Rivendell is the same Elf as Glorfindel of Gondolin (which is untrue of many names he recycled from 'The Fall of Gondolin', such as Legolas and Galdor). Still, maybe they should have made their number 10 and bring Glorfindel with them ! Would Durin's Bane or Gothmog be stronger or greater than Sauron? I don't buy the first one. While Tolkien spends most of this time talking about Glorfindel's return from death and the mechanics and timeline of his return to Middle-earth, it is the only post-LotR source that takes more than a passing regard to his role in the Silmarillion. This note in the margin is at odds with what came before, where when necessary, for effect, Balrogs not only existed but were killed in droves, at the Breaking of Utumno, at the Fall of Gondolin, and during the War of Wrath. So I think Gandalf could have slayed Smaug, except that he wasn't really allowed to and to slay a dragon, you have to be lucky, which both men were. She refused it. Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for science fiction and fantasy enthusiasts. Jul 11, 2015 - Find and follow posts tagged glorfindel on Tumblr @LAK J.R.R. Is there any explanation in the books for this? ... Then Sauron stripped from them their disguise, and they stood before him, naked and afraid. At this point, much as we see in The Silmarillion, two have died at Gondolin, which means there would be between one (who must be Durin's Bane) and five Balrogs in the War of Wrath. After the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Aragorn visits the Houses of Healing, where he sees Faramir, Éowyn and Merry lying under the influence of the Black Breath. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. When the Witch-king of Angmar, Lord of the Nazgûl and chief servant of Sauron, rode out to defend his ruling seat at the captured Fornost, his presence frightened Eärnur's horse and sent the prince flying backwards, and the Witch-king mocked him. Gothmog, naturally, should be greater than the rest. But by this point not all of Morgoth's servants need to involved in the central conflict of Arda, but dispersed around the far reaches of Ea (which developmentally had become more like the Universe than Arda globed amid the Void, as in early writings). Would the strongest non-Balrog be at least similar to the weakest Balrog? Let me take a brief aside to point out that there are not two sorts of Balrogs. By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. Making Tikz shapes/surfaces that don't appear in the PDF, Effect of withdrawing money on ISA contribution allowance. As far as I am concerned, I solved that four years ago. Thanks for contributing an answer to Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange! He may not be the only Elven Prince on Middle-Earth who has seen the Light of Valinor, but he is definitely one that has confronted the Nine before. Alas, the Glorfindel writings are believed by Christopher Tolkien to have been from the last year of his father's life, so there was never the chance for further enquiry. In Lord of the Rings, What is an Elf-Lord? I alone of you have even been in the dungeons of the Dark Lord, and So given Sauron was weaker, and Glorfindel was likely stronger it’s possible. In early writings, near the end of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears Melkor looses his reserves, which include a thousand Balrogs. None knew at that time whence they [came], save Círdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the Sea. Is it weird to display ads on an academic website? While perfectly true that the Elves have diminished, the idea has unfortunately blended with parts of the early writings, since those are the most extant narratives of the Silmarillion tales. In this case, it means that 'Balrog' was replaced with 'Demon'. He is far away. There he says that the Balrogs were all supposed to have been destroyed in the War of Wrath, but we see that Durin's Bane fled and persisted, a transferral of evil from one age to the next, like Shelob from Ungoliant (and, the reader can fill in, like Sauron from Morgoth). So, to anyone who has not examined the History of Middle-earth, read it! Sections of this page. So if Glorfindel and a Balrog is an even match, and Glorifindel can ride against all nine Nazgul, then I think the Balrog could also 'ride' (or is that move with winged speed?) Glorfindel of the 3rd age seems so mighty because he has not experienced thousands of years of Middle Earth strength waning like Elrond and Galadriel. Gandalf seems to claim the same thing about Glorfindel (will find the quote soon, hopefully), which comes to my point: why would a high elf (or Glorfindel, who could apparently veil his power like an Istari) arouse Sauron and a wizard wouldn't. Er wurde in Valinor geboren und lebte dort, bis er mit dem Großteil seines Volkes das Segensreich verließ und nach Mittelerde ging, wodurch auch er unter den Fluch der Noldorfiel. Press J to jump to the feed. A select group of his Dunedain friends had been invited (all, as he was, barely out of their childhood), along with a dozen or so of Imladris' aristocracy, Gandalf the Grey and a handful of particularly close companions. Galdor and Glorfindel then describe Bombadil as not being able to withstand Sauron in the end, once Gandalf suggests he won't lead the use of the Ring: 'But in any case,' said Glorfindel, `to send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. To be perfectly honest, I don't even think about the question anymore. There should be Demons who are greater than the Balrogs. The evidence does appear to favor the idea of Glorfindel dueling with something non- Balrog, rather than Durin's Bane of the Third Age, as you clearly indicate. to their friendship than to great wisdom. If Tolkien was considering having Glorfindel fight, still a Maia, but not something as potent as a Balrog, it would fix many of the issues in the text. Aragorn went first to Faramir, and then to the Lady Éowyn, and last to Merry. Things changed. little, except arouse the power of Mordor. your own Pins on Pinterest rev 2021.2.10.38546, The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange works best with JavaScript enabled, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site, Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, Learn more about hiring developers or posting ads with us. From a sprint planning perspective, is it wrong to build an entire user interface before the API? And did Tolkien go on to mention how they propagated from the relatively few numbers of the Maiar to the many thousands our heroes face throughout the legendarium? I don't recall that from anything I've read. Aug 11, 2017 - Tolkien: "Then Glorfindel's left hand sought a dirk, and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog's belly nigh his face..." (The Fall of Gondolin) M... Glorfindel battles the Balrog I had no idea what point he/she was trying to make. Their orders were to lead her towards Hithlum, where she would meet her elder brother Fingon. Glorfindel's own statement- Elrond sends out those who could ride against all nine. Remember what happened when Frodo offered the Ring of Power to Galadriel for safekeeping in FotR? Lol, I love Glorfindel, maybe I'm biased ! [Sauron] chanted a song of wizardry, Then sudden Felagund there swaying This brings us back to Glorfindel. Elves in general were still stronger, but that idea isn't as powerful as one might think, given how often it was referenced. And trust unbroken, freedom, escape; There would not have been a great number of them (though naturally more than Balrogs), but Tolkien devised them in part because he realized he had reused names for Orc-captains during the First Age with years between far exceeding the natural lifespan of Orcs. Why was Tom Bombadil so unconcerned about the fate of Middle-earth? Why? More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a Demon out of Thangorodrim, and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Eärendil to escape, and to seek refuge at the Mouths of Sirion. It is curious, then, that Tolkien would choose the word Demon over Balrog, with such a strong preference on his part to actively amend, in the process of writing, away from 'Balrog' and to 'Demon'. Or even just a conclusion. against the nine. "The number must be few, since your hope is in speed and secrecy. . The fight between Glorfindel and the Balrog, and the fact that the Glorfindel of The Silmarillion and the Glorfindel of The Lord of the Rings are one and the same, has often been used to demonstrate the great might of Glorfindel. Glorfindel's posting to Imladris should have been straightforward, a way for him to integrate into life in the Second Age while giving Elrond some much-needed assistance. They stand apart in time, not side by side. Remember that in the second age of the Noldor still had the light of Aman on their faces - still possessed a great deal of the strength they had in the Undying Lands. Combat-wise, the Balrogs (I argue) should trounce Sauron, just as Eonwe is not the greatest of the Maiar but is the greatest in might of arms. war Glorfindel Hauptmann Gondolins in Turgons Heer. Is Sauron not a Balrog only because he doesn't he isn't covered in fire and use a whip? With Glorfindel's opponent not being a Balrog, Melkor is free to have his Balrogs attacking Gondolin, rather than roaming about the far edges of the battle, which is considerably less ridiculous. Glorfindel was born in Tirion sometime during the Noontide of Valinor, and was descended from a house of princes. Press alt + / to open this menu Therein lies the answer to your question. Balrogs should be roughly equal, if for no reason other than Melkor molding them into a cohesive force and doling out his inherent might to them (the Morgoth, himself and his power disseminated across the world and his servants and slaves). Glorfindel was cool too but we can't be certain if it was ithe same one. Witch King vs Glorfindel- Witch King soils armor while running away. Is the last quote proof that Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel alone of all the Free Peoples of Middle Earth knew the true identity of the Istari? 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